Subject: (DePippo) (Butler) (Curry) Microwave Shields (fwd)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 204049 -0600 (CST)
From: "Roy L. Beavers" <rbeavers@llion.org>
To: emfguru <rbeavers@llion.org>
--------------------------------------------------
..........First -- and not to take sides at all -- I was born with a
natural skepticism about people who are so well educated or so certain
about "the world" regardless of how they get that way -- that they do
not entertain the possiblity that there is more to know.......You
probably remember one of my favorite quotes, by Thomas Edison: "We
don't know one-millionth of one percent about anything."....
So, to ALL I say: Speak up! -- "Speak your latent conviction, that it may
become the universal sense." (Emerson).......Also, Peter, why don't you
get those "Geneva fellows" into this argument.......cheerio......guru.....
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 20:56:17 EST
From: PDepippo@aol.com
To: rbeavers@llion.org
Cc: Bdumpe@worldbank.org
Subject: Re: (Butler) (Curry) Microwave Shields (fwd)
Jim (and all EMF-L Members),
Believe it or not I am very appreciative of your message. Without writing a
short story, let me say that I agree with you whole heartily and in my reply
below I will attempt to communicate as best I cannot only the position of the
owners of this technology but my personal position.
First, to be very clear, I am a freelance representative for this group in
Geneva. Having lived in Geneva and having met with them, I was convinced by
the evidence they presented then and remain convinced today. I am a simple
messenger who has no formal technical nor medical background but nevertheless
recognizes a problem when I see it and accepts evidence of the quality that
this group has produced regarding this mitigation technology. I give myself a
failing grade when it comes to communicating this evidence to others or
persuading this Geneva group to go one or two step further in explaining their
technology. Having said this, it should be made clear that they have
presented their finding at so many international conference that it is beyond
comprehension that the scientific community has not been more interested in
their work. But then again maybe it obvious.......
And finally, I will take great risk in the reply I offer below but I feel ( as
you do ) it would be almost criminal not to do so. My comments will be marked
as PDP2. and will mark Jim's a JB
In a message dated 12/23/98 11:01:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rbeavers@llion.org writes:
<< Subj: (Butler) (Curry) Microwave Shields (fwd)
Date: 12/23/98 11:01:04 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: rbeavers@llion.org (Roy L. Beavers)
To: rbeavers@llion.org (emfguru)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:51:38 -0800
From: James Butler
To: "Roy L. Beavers"
Subject: Re: (Curry) Microwave Shields (fwd)
Roy,
In this shielding discussion, a few more points.
JB: Peter says, € Anything else is useless! € aside from the ANOX BIOSHIELD.
I would counter that elimination and reduction are quite useful. Not
being in the field ought to be anyones first choice.
PDP2: Your right, and I may have misused the word Useless. The main point I
was trying to make is that these other products claim that they eliminate X %
of E-field and very little H-fields if any and never show if there is any
benefit for the user. They can't because they have never done any biological
tests! We have !
JB: Beyond this, the bioshield, the Claris products and others evoking
mystical powers of crystals [ as Bill describes ] need to meet two
criteria;
First. They [ companies ] should be able to explain it to lay people.
[ one measure of good science ] Instead, it seems they are unable to
even find a common language with physicists.
PDP2: Please review our "entire" English Version web site at http://emf-
bioshield.com/ I know that it will not answer all of your questions, so I
look forward to any and all comments or questions you have and that would
convince other scientists that there is really something new innovative here.
JB: Second, perhaps more important, they should be able to demonstrate the
biological effects in simple experiments.
PDP2: We have replicated the Johansson and Aronsson ( WHO '97 pub 99) VDT/
Adrenaline finding several times. This landmark study reported that after 4
hours of VDT exposure, an inversion of the adrenaline rejection curve. ANOX
Bioshield corrects the disturbance caused by PEMR and allows this hormone
level to become more normal.
JB: In reference to non-mystical shielding products Peter says, € I am
confident that biological measures will still show that serious harm is
still taking place after using any of these products €.
Maybe so, I also feel very small amounts have biological effects.
Peter also says, € No product on the market today, with one exception,
has ever truly demonstrated nor reported biological test results showing
the protective properties of their product. The one exception is Anox
Bioshield €
Again, if the results are definitive, I would love to see them. But I
have requested them of Claris [ even suggested experiments ] and, as far
as Anox Bioshield, I don't speak French or German [ no English on the
website ] and have requested translations.
PDP2: You now have the official web site address above for which all three
languages are available. Please give me the address you accessed but could
not find the English version.
JB: Peter continues, € the only true mitigation technology that clearly
shows, via hormonal and other biological measures, the harm caused by
Pulsed EMR and that it is capable of correcting and thus improving the
health of the user. Biological measures, and only biological measure
are the true benchmark to prove both harm and protection €.
PDP2: I trust that no one disagrees with my above statement. If so I would
love to hear the arguments. When we and others can demonstrate in double
blind tests, using internationally accepted protocols and testing facilities
that a device is the cause of a hormonal imbalance among other impacts, it is
difficult for me to understand how anybody with a clear conscious can refute
the result. Furthermore, when an outside agent is introduced that then
improves or corrects the situation, it is rejected and not embraced as it
should. Forget for the moment that you may not know how it works. We have
show on both sides of the equation (the problem and a solution) a cause and an
effect, and an action and a reaction.
JB: If this is so, then they would have been withholding all the keys to the
mechanism of action for EMF, which all the EMF scientists have been
pursuing for these many years.
PDP2: I say very clearly, that "if" what you say were true, "that they are
"withholding" vital information" then I agree that this would be just as
criminal as that which governments and commercial interests are guilty of.
But I firmly believe that the Geneva group does not have all the answers for
all of the EMR exposure issues nor are they claiming anything of the sort.
But they have focused their knowledge of biology, chemical compounds and have
dedicated many years of research in counter-phase and resonance principles and
theory to develop this technology and they have presented it in official
settings!
JB: If so, then Claris & Anox & others would be selling hundreds of millions
of units per year and we wouldn't be wasting our time persuading people
of the hazard of EMF.
PDP2: Let me pick this apart. As for Claris, they have no evidence. As for
selling millions, well we truly hope so; why? Well, first off, we would be
protecting men, women and children from exposure to the one device that is
probably doing the most harm if you consider duration of exposure, types of
emissions and proximity to this "ELECTRON GUN" Secondly, it would allow for
much more research to be carried out so that the biological mechanism (s) can
be better understood in addition to apply this technology to other areas of
EMR exposure. Selling requires more than proof. The market is so afraid to
take proactive action as long as they can hide behind current standards and
government sanctioned claims of safety.
JB: Ever optimistic, I actually believe there are some new truths in these
area but the people expounding these theories [ and selling products ]
need to raise their science far above the rhetoric. Crying loudly € It
Works !€ is not near enough.
PDP2: I could not agree with you more on both counts. First, I too think that
within the theory of counter phase resonance there are actions taking place
that might prove important to biology. And secondly, I agree that the Geneva
group needs to do more to defend the science behind their technology, YET
STILL MAINTAIN AN ADEQUATE LEVEL OF PROPRIETARY / TRADE SECRET INFORMATION !
PDP2: I will also say this on Geneva's behalf:
1. They have presented their finding at several international conferences;
BEMS/USA '91, EBEA/Brussels'92, WWDU/Berlin'93, ICOH/Stockholm '96,
BIOMED/Nice'97 and one other this year..... to name a few.
2. They are active members of the ICOH/CIST.
3. They have been awarded the ISO 9001 rating for research, development and
production of their technology.
4. They have performed tests in 6 different countries including the US, from
yeast to people and using MPR type VDT's.
5. They attempted to present research to Microwave News but were not
successful. And it beats-the-shit-out-of-me why.... Maybe things will
change?
6. They continue to do new research and search out new relationships with
those labs or other partners that have an interest in the VDT problem and
their technology.
7. There is no other group of researcher that has done the level of in-vitro
and in-vivo research using REAL VDT's. NONE !
PDP2: the downside to things I'll add that;
1. Our website is far from being as good as it needs to be. One of my desires
is to put expanded versions of all of their research on the site. For easy
access by all. At the moment I do not have the resources for this nor other
mandatory items of importance.
2. Nor do I have the resources to photocopy and mail all of the requests I
have to provide test reports.
And finally, I'll say this;
1. I mentioned to Roy that I had no intention whatsoever to use EMF-L as a
platform for aggressive promotion to generate sales. If I have offended
anyone, well then please accept my apologies. For me, EMF-L has been a
vehicle to learn more about the EMR issue. And I've learned much. At the same
time it's been no surprise to me to again see just how corrupt a few people
can be and how they are capable of impacting so many as was recently shown in
the EMF Rapid announcement! I hope that EMF-L and all those that are in this
fight can change things and bring these people to justice. EMR is not the
problem! A FEW PEOPLE ARE !
2. It is clear that there are some very influential people on this list.
Should they wish to take action and make a positive difference, we welcome
your involvement. Even those that have arguments against are welcomed as it
serves to force us (me) to address those issue that have merit........... as
is the case with this message from Jim.
3. There is great harm being done by VDT's for which Bert Dumpe from Ergotech
has the record. Many others have this knowledge too but none has come forward
or fights the bad guys as she has on this issue.
Regards, and Christmas Wishes, Jim >>
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.
Peter de Pippo
Archive provided courtesy of WaveGuide, http://www.wave-guide.org
Reprinted with permission of Roy Beavers, http://www.feb.se/EMF-L/EMF-L.html