Subject:  Re The "common sense" big picture (Philips)(O'Riordain).
Date:     Tue, 05 Sep 2000 120113 -0500
From:     Roy Beavers 
To:       guru 
--------------------------------------------------

........Response from EMF-L.........

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: The "common sense" big picture (Philips).
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:46:55 +0100
From: "Donal O'Riordain" 
To: 
CC: 

Dear Roy, Alasdair Philips,

>.........I believe this is one of the best written (and thought through)
>pieces that EMF-L has ever received......  It makes me think of the

Roy I disagree,

... ... The only reliable answer to
>“do EMFs impair health?”  is “Perhaps”.

Please be very careful.  The above statement is incorrect. Firstly even the
most pro industry Engineer or Scientist would qualify the statement by
saying 'thermal'.
EMF's can cook. Many Governments, Scientists and Engineers seem totally
unaware of this, despite the existence of the microwave oven.


... ... The only reliable answer to
"do EMF's impair health?"  is YES

regards Donal O'Riordain B. Eng. (Electronics)











>
-----Original Message-----
From: Roy Beavers 
To: guru 
Date: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 2:19 PM
Subject: The "common sense" big picture (Philips).


>.........I believe this is one of the best written (and thought through)
>pieces that EMF-L has ever received......  It makes me think of the
>cartoonist's admonition:  We have met the enemy ... and he is us.....
>
>But, Alasdair, we mustn't let such "realistic thinking" become an excuse
>to do nothing.  The forward march of civilization is a record of overcoming
>the kind of social, political (and psychological) inertia you describe.
>I don't think you intended to suggest otherwise.  Therefore, the various
"accountability"
>measures that have been suggested ... DO make a legitimate
>contribution to our efforts to deal with this EMF quandary, I
suggest......guru.......
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Re: Guru chastised (Lundquist)
>Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 22:05:17
>From: Alasdair Philips 
>To: roy@emfguru.com
>
>Hi all
>Looking at the Earth from space you see a myriad of glowing, pulsing
>bright dots where the cities and mass lit roads factories and houses are.
>
>It looks like a spreading and dangerous fungus. I remember a lecture
>at a Cambridge Conference ('Science for the Earth') about 8 years ago
>by Lynn Margulis (Uni. Massacachusetts) ~ she showed such a slide and
>quoted from Nietzsche over 100 years ago who wrote:
> "The Earth is a beautiful place, but it has a pox called man".
>
>I don't think suing the IEEE would do any good, nor would a Neuremberg
>trial. Nor would a new professional body of electromagnetic
>hygenists. We need a paradigm shift in consciousness and that comes
>from a spiritual, social and eventually political direction change.
>We need to change from a greed and profit driven 'now' society to
>one where we are concerned with our great great grandchildren's healthy
>future on a planet with much diversity of life.
>
>Quoting from the Swiss Re document "Electrosmog ~ a phantom risk" that
>we have discussed before ( available somewhere on www.swissre.com ):
>
>“Generally it is expected that the question as to whether EMFs and
>radiation pose a health risk will be answered sooner or later with a
>clear Yes or No, which would then more or less automatically clarify
>the question of legal liability. This expectation is erroneous because
>it is based on a mistaken assumption: namely, that the relationships
>between EMF exposure and diseases such as cancer, immune deficiency,
>Alzheimer’s Disease and Parkinson’s Disease are merely complicated.
>
>In fact, however, we are dealing with complex relationships which
>cannot even be identified, let alone understood, using the research
>methods presently available.  ... ... The only reliable answer to
>“do EMFs impair health?”  is “Perhaps”.
>
>“With only inconclusive findings to go on we find ourselves facing
>the task of trying to achieve a just balance between the individual’s
>need for protection and the interests of society as a whole - a
>technology that benefits many but may possibly seriously harm some
>few.” ...
>“... a relationship that is especially important for gaining a
>correct understanding of the EMF issue is that living organisms
>can amplify the energy of signals. The actual cause of the biological
>response is this amplification process, not the signal itself which
>‘merely’ triggers it. It is therefore necessary to distinguish between
>energy effects and signal effects on life and two different dangers
>posed by electromagnetic phenomena.” ...
>
>“Up until the beginning of this century, science was able to study
>only questions which could be answered with 'Yes' or 'No'. In the course
>of this century, it has become ever more apparent that practically
>all causal laws are, in reality, mere statistical observations. ...
>
>At first glance, there is only a minor quantitative distinction
>between ‘certain’ and ‘highly probable’. In fact, however, the
>difference is fundamental and qualitative because it is the difference
>between ‘must’ and ‘can’, between ‘yes/no’ and ‘perhaps’, between
>‘doubtful’ and ‘doubtless’, between ‘certain’ and ‘uncertain’, between
>‘possible’ and ‘impossible’. It is the difference between ‘knowledge’
>and ‘conjecture’. And because all scientific knowledge is based on
>statistical observations, the knowledge of science is mere presumptive
>knowledge.
>
>...  This change of paradigm, which was initiated early in this
>century through the insights of nuclear physics and is now starting
>to take concrete form in new scientific disciplines such as
>complexity research, has been accompanied by a fundamental change
>in the concept of causality.”
>
>“While classical science considered a cause to be only that which
>must necessarily bring about an effect as a result of the causal
>principle, today a cause is also considered to be that which may
>bring about an effect.”
>
>“By what compass should the legal system steer?”
>
>“Starting from the classical concept of causality, it is practically
>impossible to prove that electromagnetic fields can be a cause of
>disease. This is because it would involve showing the conditions
>under which EMF always leads to disease. Or should it be sufficient
>to prove that weak fields can increase the probability of disease.
>And it is precisely this which cannot be excluded: the possibility
>that electromagnetic exposure might favour the incidence of certain
>diseases. In that case - according to our present understanding -
>electromagnetic fields would be a cause of disease just like a flu
>virus which may, but need not necessarily, result in influenza.”
>
>“The socio-political risk must be classed as extraordinarily high
>because the legal instrument of liability is increasingly being used,
>or even misused, as a means of coping with the problems of life.
>But who decides what is right and what is wrong, what is detrimental
>and what is beneficial, what is to be permitted and what is to be
>prohibited?  Natural science denies responsibility, and politics
>proves to be unequal to the task of bringing about a social consensus
>on what risks people are willing to enter into conjointly, and what
>share of these risks each individual must bear.” ...
>
>“The EMF problem cannot be resolved through further research alone:
>on the contrary, there is a need for new, practice-oriented categories
>for assessing the research results currently available. ... The
>EMF problem cannot be delegated to individual groups or institutions:
>that would be like leaving the formulation of a contract to just one
>of the parties. ...  It is not acceptable to force risks upon individual
>human beings. What is required is a general consensus on how much risk
>individuals may reasonably be expected to accept.”
>
>With thanks to Christian Brauner and Swiss Re.
>
>Bright blessings to all
>
>Alasdair
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Alasdair Philips,   BSc(Eng), DAgE, MIAgE
>Director, UK Powerwatch, (aphilips@gn.apc.org)
>EMC Engineer and EMF-bioeffects researcher
>   http://www.powerwatch.org.uk
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>


Archive provided courtesy of WaveGuide, http://www.wave-guide.org
Reprinted with permission of Roy Beavers, http://www.emfguru.com